CANADA
PROVINCE OF QUEBEC

COURT OF KING'S BENCH

DISTRICT OF QUEBEC

CRIMINAL ASSIZES

THE KING

V

TELESPHORE GAGNON, accused of murder

This twenty-sixth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty, appeared Gérard Gagnon, of Ste. Philomène, stepson of the accused, aged eleven years, who, after swearing on the Holy Gospels, doth depose and say:

EXAMINED BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:

Q. You stayed in Ste. Philomène last summer? Did you stay in Ste. Philomène last summer?

A. Yes.

Q. Telesphore Gagnon is your stepfather?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was at home last summer?

A. Papa and Maman.

Q. Your father and mother. Apart from that?

A. Aurore, me, Georges and Marie-Jeanne.

Q. Now, about Aurore -- did anything different happen to her than to the others?

A. Yes.

Q. What was there? What happened?

A. Papa beat Aurore with the axe handles.

Q. How many times did he beat her with an axe handle?

A. Once.

Q. Do you remember when that happened?

A. It was last summer.

Q. What was his reason for beating her?

A. Because she had the canister lid on her head.

Q. Did he beat her --? How did he beat her? Where did he

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beat her?

A. He beat her on her bottom, over her dress.

Q. How many times did he hit her?

A. I didn't count the blows.

Q. Did he hit her several times?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, apart from the axe handle -- from the time with the axe handle... Look at the axe handle you're being shown, will you, and please tell us whether it was that one?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it last summer that you saw your father use it?

A. Yes.

Q. He didn't use it this winter?

A. No.

Q. You see that the axe handle has been cut there?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it like that last summer?

A. No.

Q. How was it?

A. It was black, at the end...

Q. It was black at the end?

A. There was blood.

Q. Who was the one who cut it?

. It was Papa.

Q. So, where did he cut it?

A. When he started to set up his shop.

Q. Were you the one who turned that axe handle over to Detective Couture?

A. Yes.

Q. Who gave it to Detective Couture?

A. Yes.

Q. You're the one?

A. ....

Q. Are you certain that it was with that axe handle that he beat Aurore?

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A. Yes.

Q. Now, apart from the time with the axe handle -- did you see him beat her apart from that?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he beat her with?

A. With a switch, in the barn.

Q. Look at the two switches that are here, will you, and tell us, will you, whether it was with those switches, or switches similar to that -- to those ones?

A. It was with that one, the black switch.

Objection to this question as leading.

(Exhibit No-4) So, where did he beat her?

A. On her bottom.

Q. What was the little girl saying when he was spanking her during that time?

A. She was screaming.

Q. And your father? What was he saying?

A. He wasn't saying anything.

Q. How long did he beat her?

A. ....A pretty long while.

Q. Was he holding onto her? What was he doing?

A. He wasn't holding onto her. He left her like that.

Q. Pardon?

A. He wasn't holding onto to her. He left her like that. He beat her.

Q. Now, Gérard, apart from that -- apart from the axe handle and the switch -- did you see him beat her other times than that one?

A. ...Yes.

Q. What other times did you see him?

A. When I came in, he was going upstairs with the whip.

Q. He was going upstairs with the whip?

A. When I came in the house, Aurore was upstairs and he was going up behind.

Q. When did that happen? Last summer or this winter? When?

A. It was this winter.

Q. Which whip did he have?

A. The cattle whip.

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Q. And you went upstairs with him?

A. No.

Q. How do you know whether he beat her?

A. I could hear her screaming through the pipe grate.

Q. Pardon?

A. I could hear her screaming through the pipe grate.

Q. Apart from Aurore's cries, could you hear anything else? Could you hear other noises?

A. Yes.

Q. What?
A. I could hear the whip hissing.

Q. You're saying that it was a cattle whip. How long was the lash? How was it made?

A. It was as long as the pole that's there (about three and a half feet).

Q. Was the handle long?

A. ....

Q. The whip handle -- how long was it?

A. It was this long (the witness indicates about two feet).

Q. Was it made of wood?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember the day your little sister died?

A. Yes.

Q. Did that incident take place very long before she died?

A. .....

Q. Did the business with the whip happen very long before she died?

A. No.

Q. About how long before she died?

A. About fifteen (15) days.

Q. During that time, Gérard, did your little sister have marks on her body? Was she sick?

A. I didn't look.

Q. You didn't look?

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A. She wasn't sick.

Q. She wasn't sick at the time?

A. ....

Q. Was anything the matter with her?

A. No.

Q. There was nothing the matter with her at that time?

A. .....

Q. Now, after you heard him beat her and the whip hiss, did you see your father come downstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did he go and what did he do?

A. He came downstairs. He put the whip on the stairs. He then went to the shop.

Q. Did he say anything?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did he say anything?

A. No.

Q. He didn't speak?

A. Yes, he said she'd get some more the next day.

Q. That day -- that time he went upstairs with the whip to beat her -- where was the little girl sleeping?

A. She was sleeping on the floor.

Q. She was sleeping on the floor?

A. In the same corner as the other time.

Q. Was she in bed the time he went upstairs to beat her -- that time?

A. No, it was in the afternoon.

Q. Did she have black eyes before he beat her?

A. No.

Q. There was nothing the matter with her eyes at the time?

A. Only afterward.

Q. After he beat her?

A. Yes, when she came down from upstairs, she had black eyes.

Q. You're certain of that, Gérard?

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A. Yes.

Q. That day -- the day he beat her with the whip?

A. Yes.

Q. That she had black eyes?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she -- when you say that she had black eyes, tell the jurors what her eyes were like?

A. Her eyes were -- she only had a small black blotch.

Q. She only had a small black blotch?

A. On her left eye.

Q. Was there anything the matter with her head?

A. No.

Q. Last summer, was that the only time you saw him beat her with the cattle whip, and had you seen him beat her before?

A. No, in the fall...

Q. Pardon?

A. In the fall.

Q. In the fall as well. What did you see last fall?

Objection from the defence.

Q. Which fall are you talking of? Was it the last fall? Was it last fall, or a year ago? What?

A. The fall -- this fall.

Q. What did you see last fall?

A. He beat Marie-Jeanne with the same whip.

Objection to this evidence from the defence.

Q. Now, did you see him beat Aurore with the whip another time, other than that time?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. The same day.

Q. You're saying that you saw him beat Aurore then? Last fall?

A. Yes.

Q. With the whip? You're certain of that?

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A. Yes.

Q. So, where did he beat her?

A. I don't know where he beat her.

Q. You say that you saw him beat her. Did you see him beat her inside the house or outdoors? Where did he beat her?

A. He beat her upstairs.

Q. Did he beat her last summer?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see him beat her with last summer -- last summer?

A. With the red whip.

Q. With the red whip?

A. ....

Q. Look at that whip and tell me whether that was the one he beat her with?

A. Yes. (Exhibit P 2).

Q. So, where did he beat her?

A. On her bottom.

Q. Was this inside the house or outside?

A. Outside.

Q. Your father worked during the day?

A. Yes.

Q. At what time would he leave in the morning?

A. Around eight o'clock, eight-thirty.

Q. And at what time would he come back in the evening?

A. In the evening he would sometimes arrive at around seven-thirty.

Q. Now, would he come back as late as that in the wintertime?

A. Pardon?

A. Would he come back as late as that in the wintertime?

A. In the winter...

Q. Or would he come earlier?

A. In the summertime, he didn't work in those woods.

Q. When the weather was bad -- would he sometimes spend the day at home when the weather was bad?

A. No, he would go to the shop.

Q. Was the shop near the house?

A. A little.

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Q. Pardon ?

A. A little.

Q. Would he come back home for dinner?

A. Yes.

Q. So, if I understand correctly, he slept at home almost every night?

A. Yes.

BY THE COURT: That shop is on the same site as the house? It's next to the house?

A. Nearby.

Q. Next to the house?

A. .....

BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:

Q. Now, during the days your father worked at the shop, or left during the day on household business and came back home in the evening, what was happening at home during his absence?

A. Maman would burn her. She would beat her.

Q. What would she beat her with?

A. With the poker and pieces of wood, switches.

Q. Now, you're saying that he would beat her. After having burned her, did she have any marks or anything that showed?

A. Yes.

Q. So, what mark did she have?

A. Burns.

Q. And apart from burns, did she sometimes have other marks? Did the other blows make sores?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, was it easy to see those sores?

A. Pardon?

Q. It was easy to see those sores?

A. No.

Q. Did you see the sores that were on Aurore?

A. They were on her body.

Q. Did you see the ones on her legs?

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A. Yes.

Q. Did she have any on her hands?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you see them?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did she have anything on her head?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she have?

A. A big soft bump.

Q. Did she walk around the house with that big bump?

A. Pardon?

Q. Did she walk around the house while she had that bump on her head?

A. She worked all the same.

Q. Now, when your father beat her like that, with the cattle whip as you say, did you ever look to see whether there were marks afterward?

A. No.

Q. You didn't see that?

A. ....

Q. When he beat her with the switches or the axe handle, did you ever look to see whether there were marks afterward?

A. No.

Q. You have just told us that your mother sometimes beat her -- that she would beat your little sister. Did she ever tell your father that she beat Aurore?

A. She only said so once, at the table.

Q. She only said so once, at the table. What did she say?

A. She said, "Today, I gave her a good thrashing, 'because she didn't want to listen.'"

Q. Did she say that she had only given her a thrashing or did she use other expressions than that?

A. Only a thrashing.

Q. Did she talk about that one Saturday?

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A. Pardon?

A. One Saturday -- did she talk about that one Saturday? Did she talk one Saturday?

A. Yes, one Saturday.

Q. What did she say that time?

A. She said, "Today I gave her two (2) thrashings, today."

Q. What did your father say about that?

A. He didn't speak. He was angry.

Q. What did your father say about that?

A. He didn't say anything.

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. You worked with your father this winter?

A. Yes.

Q. You went in the woods with him?

A. Yes.

Q. Every day?

A. No.

Q. From time to time?

A. Yes.

Q. You said that your father had beaten Aurore in the barn once?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did he beat her that time?

A. Because she had gone to the barn in her bare feet.

Q. And he didn't want her to go to the barn in her bare feet?

A. No, Maman was the one who sent her.

Q. Your mother was the one who sent her in her bare feet, and your father didn't want that?

A. No.

Q. Did your father know that your mother was the one who sent her to the barn in her bare feet?

A. No.

Q. And your father wanted to make her understand that she was not go to the barn in her bare feet?

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A. Yes.

Q. So, every time your father beat Aurore, did he beat her for nothing or did he think that she deserved it?

A. He thought that she deserved it.

Q. Was her mother the one who told him what Aurore was like?

A. Yes.

Q. Your mother would say that she was troublesome, wouldn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. That she was a thief?

A. Yes. She said that she had stolen candy from the chest of drawers.

Q. Pardon?

A. From the chest of drawers.

Q. That wasn't true?

A. No.

Q. Would your mother say that she was dirty as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she dirty?

A. No.

Q. Would she go on the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. Why would she go on the floor?

A. Because Maman didn't want to give her the chamber pot.

Q. But did your mother tell your father that she would go on the floor like that because she didn't give her the chamber pot?

A. She said, "Today she went on the floor. I gave her another thrashing today."

Q. What did the father say?

A. He didn't say anything.

Q. So, did he know that your mother refused to give her the chamber pot?

A. No.

Q. He didn't know?

A. …..

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Q. Did you know that your mother had put filth in your father's clothes?

A. No.

Q. You weren't aware of it?

A. I only noticed once.

Q. You noticed it once?

A...She didn't want us to go upstairs just because of that and when I was going up behind her once, she slapped me in the face.

Q. Your mother?

A. Yes.

Q. You went upstairs after your mother, to see whether she was the one who was doing that?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw your mother do it?

A. Yes, I was there, through a crack in the door.

Q. You saw her do it through a crack in the door?

A. Yes.

Q. She took filth. What was that filth?

A. Shit.

Q. And you saw your mother do that? Take some and put it in your father's clothes?

A. She put some in her hat.

Q. She put some in Aurore's hat?

A. She emptied it in Papa's clothes.

Q. And then she took the hat and emptied it in your father's clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. Which of your Papa's clothes?

A. His Sunday clothes, spring clothes -- his spring overcoat.

Q. Did you father notice that later?

A. Yes.

Q. But what did your mother say?

A. She said, "Go see what your darling has done

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upstairs."

Q. And your father went upstairs?

A. No, he stayed on his chair. He swore. He took the whip. He beat Aurore.

Q. Did your mother mention to your father what Aurore had done?

A. No, she sent Aurore to go get it.

Q. And Aurore brought it and she showed it to your father?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was after that that your father beat her?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she ever tell your father that it was your mother who had done that?

A. She didn't want her to say so.

Q. So, every time your father beat Aurore, it was based on your mother's reports, like these.

A. Yes.

Q. And everything that your mother said about Aurore was false?

A. Yes.

Q. It was in order to have her beaten?

A. Yes.

Q. Your father would not have beaten her if your mother hadn't said those things?

A. No, he would never have beaten her.

Q. Your father was kind to you?

A. Yes.

BY THE COURT: When your mother made reports like that to your father, did your father question Aurore to know whether it was true or whether it wasn't true or did he take a switch right away and beat her?

A. Pardon?

Q. When your mother reported events like the clothes affair, for example, did your father question Aurore? Did he ask whether it were true and why she had done that before beating her?

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A. No.

Q. He would beat her right away?

A. Yes.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. Didn't your mother make Aurore say, in front of your father, that she was the one who had done that?

A. Yes.

Q. When your mother wanted to have Aurore beaten because she had put something in your father's clothes, she would say, "It's true. You're the one who did that."?

A. Yes.

Q. Aurore would said, "Yes"?

A. When she said no, Maman would hit her on the head.

Q. When she said no, your mother would hit her on the head. Would she finish by saying yes?

A. She would say, "Yes, yes."

Q. And it was after that that your father would beat her? When Aurore had admitted that it was true?

A. Yes.

Q. Did your mother ever tell your father why Aurore had sores?

A. No.

Q. Pardon ?

A. No.

Q. Did she not say that she had humours?

A. No.

Q. That she had tuberculosis?

A. Yes, she told the doctor that.

Q. She told the doctor that?

A. Yes, Doctor Lafond.

Q. You say that when your father beat her this winter, she had black eyes after he beat her?

A. Yes, when she came down from upstairs, she was moving with some difficulty. Papa had her put ointment on.

Q. Your father made her put ointment on her eye?

A. Yes, and everywhere.

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Q. Was that this winter?

A. Yes, when he beat her.

Q. When he beat her?

A. ....

Q. Who put that ointment on?

A. Marie-Jeanne.

Q. That was this winter?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that Aurore hurt herself on the eye after Epiphany, when your Uncle Anthyme died?

A. No.

Q. You don't remember that?

A. N.....

Q. You don't remember that one evening, while your father and your mother were gone to keep vigil beside the body of your Uncle Anthyme, Marie-Jeanne fell against the stove door -- I mean Aurore?

A. When she fell against the stove door it was her right eye, because it was Marie-Jeanne who had pushed her.

Q. And her eye swelled up then?

A. Yes, it swelled up on her the next day.

Q. Marie Jeanne was the one who had pushed her?

A. Yes, she was going to get the kettle of boiling water to wash the dishes. Marie-Jeanne pushed her because she wasn't walking fast enough.

Q. She and Marie-Jeanne quarrelled often?

A. Yes.

Q. Marie-Jeanne was the one who had pushed her that time?

A. Yes.

Q. So, when your father beat her in January, did she fall against the stove?

A. No.

Q. So, it was before she fell that your father beat her?

A. Yes.

Q. And your Uncle Anthyme died around Epiphany?

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A. Yes.

Q. And it was after that that Aurore fell down?

A. Yes, Maman gave her a thrashing on top of that.

Q. Your mother gave her a thrashing on top of that?

A. Yes.

Q. So, when was it that your mother gave her a thrashing on top of that?

A. It was when she was standing near the stove. When she arrived in the evening, she picked up a switch that was behind the cupboard. She hit her over the head with it. She said, "I'm going to give you some more on top of that. That will make it swell up."

Q. Was your father there?

A. No, he had gone to unhitch the horse.

Q. Did your mother tell your father why Aurore had a soft bump on her head?

A. No, Papa didn't know.

Q. When your father beat Aurore with the axe handle, as you say, he beat her over her dress?

A. Yes.

Q. On her bottom?

A. Yes.

Q. That axe handle he used was the same one for stirring up the fire?

A. Yes, in the shop.

Q. The fire in the shop, in the forge?

A. Yes.

Q. He used it after he beat Aurore? Before?

A. Before.

Q. What was on the end wasn't blood? It was burned black?

A. And blood stains.

Q. Blood stains. Where did those stains come from?

A. They came from Aurore.

Q. They came from Aurore? But that was last summer?

A. When he beat her.

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Q. You're saying that he beat her over her dress?

A. Yes, her dress was plastered with blood.

Q. Before he beat her?

A. Yes.

Q. But in your testimony, downstairs, in the Police Court -- you remember?

A. ....

Q. I asked you, on page thirty-six (36), "Q. Did you sometimes see blood on your little sister."

A. Yes.

"A. No, not when Papa beat her with the axe handle."

"Q. When?"

"A. The other times, when Papa and Maman beat her with the switch."

"Q. So, why did he beat her?"

"A. Because she deserved it. When she deserved it, he beat her."

"Q. Apart from the switch and the axe handle, did you see your father beat her with anything else?"

"A. No."

"Q. Did you see sores on your little sister?"

"A. Yes."

"Q. Was it before she was beaten that she had sores ?"

"A. She had some long before that.".

Q. In your first testimony, I asked you, here, on page forty-one (41), regarding the whip, "Q. Do you have a lash whip at home?" "A. We had one. We lost it."

"Q. When did you lose that whip?" "A. During haying season."

Q. Was that the cattle whip?

A. Yes.

Q. You lost it last summer, during haying season?

A. Yes.

BY THE COURT: In January, what whip did he beat her with, when he beat Aurore?

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A. With the lash whip.

Q. With the lash whip?

A. And the red whip.

MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. But you say that the lash whip had been lost during haying season? You didn't have it this winter?

A. No, that was the other one. We had another whip.

Q. There was another one?

A. ....

Q. When your father beat her with the red whip, was it also on top of her dress?

A. Underneath.

Q. On her bottom?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was the time your mother had put filth in your father's clothes?

A. No, it was the other time.

Q. Why had he beaten her that time?

A. Because she hadn't deserved it. It was Marie-Jeanne who -- Maman had told her to go say things that weren't true, in order to have Aurore beaten, because she wanted to dry, to wring out the washing.

Q. You're saying that your mother had said things that weren't true?

A. To Marie Jeanne and Marie-Jeanne told Papa.

Q. And that time, he had beaten her because your mother had told Marie-Jeanne things that weren't true?

A. Yes.

Q. And Marie Jeanne had gone to tell your father?

A. Yes.

Q. The accused here -- he's not your father? He's not your real father?

A. No.

Q. But the other one? She's your real mother?

A. Yes………

Q. Your father has always been kind to you?

A. Yes.

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Q. Did you ever tell your father that what your mother was doing regarding Aurore, and saying, wasn't true?

A. No.

Q. Why didn't you tell him?

A. Because Maman said if we told him, she would do the same to us.

Q. That she would do as much to you?

A. ….

Q. And that's why you didn't say it?

A. Yes.

Q. Because your mother didn't want your father to know about it?

A. Yes.

And the deponent saith no more.

[signature]MJ Tremblay
Stenographer

I, the undersigned, sworn stenographer, certify that the foregoing is the faithful transcript of my shorthand notes, the whole in accordance with the law.

[signature]MJ Tremblay

Official Stenographer

(At 3:50 p.m., the Court took a 10-minute recess).